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Re: Catherine and Hughes de Payens



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-------

No, I never meant that Louis could control him in England.  I thought  your
source said the Sinclairs were vassals in France.

  A few (the 3rd, 4th, etc. sons) might have been left  little inheritance
and thus become impoverished in a few generations but we probably don't even
know their names or what became of them.  Those that we do know
historically, we know because their names were connected with titles, land
ownership and battles but anyone living in France was a vassal of the King
there.  Being a vassal did not mean that you were lowly and impoverished.
Two kings, one of England and one of Norway, Denmark and England thought
Emma St. Clair's family important enough to marry into.

Here just for the interest of history, is an example of King Henry being
still a vassal (in France)

 pg. 105 Eleanor of Aquitaine: " The logic of Henry's(now King of England)
plans required the recovery of the Vexin and the addition of Berry (two
French territories), which could only be had at the expense of his overlord
(King Louis).  But bold and sudden as he was where projects were clearly
realizablre, he forbore to make war upon Louis to obtain these precious
morsels."   and

pg. 108" It only remained for Henry to collect the guarantees.  In Sept.
1158 (he has been King of Eng. for about 4 years now) the King of the
English went less ostentatiously to Paris, where he earned the praise not
only of the Capets (King Louis' clan) but of the citizens of the Ile, who
had dreaded some catastrophe from the meeting of the two monarchs upon this
business.  If the chancellor had offered some display of Plantagenet wealth
and power, the king bore himself with modesty and restraint.  He eschewed
the royal escort proffered by his overlord, and went about Paris with simple
elegance, making more of good works than of himself.  He took pains to viit
all the shrines, to deal liberally with churches, with lepers and the poor.
He dined in the Merovigian palace with the Capets, but did not tarrry
overlong."

About 1179 (Henry has been King 21 years) King Louis' son got really sick.
Louis had these dreams that urged him to go to a certain holy shrine in
England to obtain Phillip's recovery.  So Louis dressed as a pilgrim "and
subduing that dread of the sea he had acquired on his return from the second
crusade, he set sail from Wissant .......
    Henry, apprised of his imminent arrival, rode all night under a moon in
eclipse to meet his OVERLORD in Dover, whither a suitable company of bishops
and barons had been hastily summoned to form an escort.....The king greeted
Louis with every mark of sympathy and deference, and the cortege brought him
without delay to the shrine."  --Phillip did recover by the time Louis
returned.

    So even on English soil, Henry treated Louis as his Leige Lord.  But,
no, Louis couldn't boss him around there in England.  As I said there were
different levels of vassalship and Louis could not boss Henry around in
Normandy, Aquitaine, etc. (which was a whole big chunk of France) any more
but he was still counted as his Leige Lord.

-----Original Message-----
From: J. R. Carpenter Jr. <gra_jrc@SHSU.EDU>
To: sinclair@zilker.net <sinclair@zilker.net>
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: Catherine and Hughes de Payens


>[ This is the Sinclair family discussion list, sinclair@zilker.net.
>[ For more information, see http://www.mids.org/sinclair/list.html
>-------
>
>>Even William the Conqueror continued to be a vassal and his kingly
>>descendants for generations had to submit to a certain amount of abuse
from
>>the King of France because of this long standing arrangement.
>
>But only when acting as the Duke of Normandy. When William was acting as
>King of England, he was not under control of the King of France. Later on,
>King Henry II was constantly worried that the Cambro-Norman "adventurers"
he
>let go to Ireland would set up their own Kingdom of Ireland similar to what
>William did. If this thought ever crossed their minds, they never acted on
>it. Strongbow and the others continued to profess their loyalty to Henry no
>matter how many times they "re-interpreted" his wishes/commands.
>
>I think William always called himself "William, Duke of Normandy, King of
>England."
>
>>    With Geoffrey came his son Henry Fitz-Empress, Duke of Normandy, a
>>personage of prime consideration in himself.  He was less important as
>>Geoffrey's son and heir then as the heir of his mother, Matilda Empress,
to
>>Normandy (Matilda was the daughter of Eadgyth/Edith/Maude d/o St. Margaret
>>and Malcom Canmore and of Henry I of England)."
>
>The Empress Matilda, Good Queen Maude, reintroduced Saxon blood into the
>English royal line. She was involved in the civil war, the Anarchy, with
her
>nephew Stephen.
>
>Rick
>(from Alexander Sinkler, b. ca 1666 Scotland, to Virginia 1698)
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>John R. "Rick" Carpenter, Jr.
>Sam Houston Press & Copy Center
>Sam Houston State University
>Huntsville TX 77341-2326
>gra_jrc@shsu.edu  409.294.1858  Fax 409.294.1977
>[
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