Re: For Glen Cook, demise of the Templars???

["John S. Quarterman" <jsq@quarterman.org>]

Tim,

>To quote the Catholic Encyclopaedia as a source of accurate statements of
>Catholic Dogma, Belief and propaganda is fine. However to rely upon it when
>it claims the continuance of an heretical and papally suppressed
>organsation, espcially when the said encyclopaedia is being somewhat
>economical with the truth, is a trifle provocative or even naive.

You said it was not possible to argue that the Knights of Christ
or any other group were a continuation of the Templars.  I produced
an argument that they were exactly that.

If you have further arguments, state them.

>Catholic teaching tells us hat the Pope is the supreme authority - God's
>personal representative on earth. Later Holy Mother the Church declared that
>the Pope, speaking ex-cathedra on matters of faith and morals is, in fact,
>infallible - absolutely incable of error. Heresy certainly lies within the
>remit of statements of faith.
>
>The Pope suppressed the Order of the Knights Templar.His rule was absolute.

And then he died.  The next pope continued with disposing of the
remnants of the order, which included reorganizing the parts in
Portugal and Aragon into new orders.

Are you saying one pope had the authority to disband and the next one
did not have the authority to reorganize?  That would seem a contradiction.

> The carefully chosen mis-use of terminology by the present Catholic
>Encyclopaedia in suggesting that the Order of the Temple continued
>officially with papal blessing after the Pope himself had suppressed it,

Different popes.  Even if it had been the same pope, he was the pope,
was he not?

>would do credit to the Stalinist revisionist historians of the late and
>unlamented USSR.

Such a slur does your argument no credit.

>How could the Knights of Christ be honestly described in the long term as a
>direct and official continuation of the original order when:
>
>1) the original order was, under papal, orders, supressed and disibanded and
>its surviving members pensioned off.

Well, if the Catholic Church, which is the organization the pope heads,
says not all of them were pensioned off, I tend to put some credence
in such a statement until I see evidence to the contrary.  If you have
such evidence, state it.

>2) the vow of allegiance to the pope and the pope alone through the
>authority of the Grandmaster was changed to an oath of allegiance to the
>King of Portugal.

As I pointed out previously, the Templars were originally founded
*before* they became an arm of the papacy, so your point (2) seems
irrelevant.

>3) the rules of entry were changed soon after the Knights of Christ's
>foundation, to exclude all postulants who were not Portugese nationals.

You seem to be agreeing that the Knights of Christ were a Portuguese order.

>4) the objectives and function of the two orders, Templar and Knights of
>Christ, diverged so dramatically and so completely.

In what ways did they diverge?

>5) Templar properties, treasure and documentation in countries other than
>Portugal which should (if the CE is to be believed) properly have passed to
>the Knights of Christ as the heirs and continuation of the Knights Templar,
>passed to the Hospitallers, the French King, the pals and cronies of the
>English King and back to the families of he original donors in some cses in
>Scotland.

Why would properties in countries other than Portugal pass to the Knights
of Christ?

>I personally view any statement by the catholic authorities regarding anyone
>investigated for, or condmened for heresy, with the gravest of suspicion.
>Catholic records in the public domain regarding these and similar matters
>can usefully be used as a starting line for investigation to try and find
>out the truth.

Considering that Catholic authorities probably wrote such records,
I believe those two sentences contradict each other.

Not to mention that the Templars were tried country by country, and in
Portugal they were found innocent.

> Did the Gestapo tel lthe truth about the belief sstem of the
>Jews? If so, then perhaps we may perhaps place some reluctant credence on
>official catholic sources on matters of heresy.

Really, comparing the papacy to the Gestapo is not an argument.
If you have arguments, state them.

>Best wishes
>
>Tim

John S. Quarterman <jsq@quarterman.org>